I saw an interesting topic over on Keyboard Corner Forum...the title was, “Do I really want my keyboard to sound like a saxophone?”

Now I realize, that many of the respondents to that particular thread are playing in a group, so the sound of guitar, sax, harmonica etc., would more than likely be covered by a real person.
However, we arranger players are usually one-man (or woman) band giggers (or “workers”, as Dave likes to call it ), and using various tones to color our music seems to be more acceptable.

Or is it?

Lee’s remarks about the importance of the orchestra sounds (to him) prompted me to ask these questions of SZ’ers

How does each member feel about the emulation of instruments other than those naturally produced by a keyboard controlled instrument?

What do you consider your best emulation attempt...sax, guitar, fiddle, harmonica, or something else?

What non-keyboard instrument emulation do you refuse to do, or feel the least comfortable with representing?

What non-keyboard instrument, in your own opinion, do you feel your arranger does the best job of imitating?

What non-keyboard instruments do you wish it would do a better job of emulating?

If you are primarily a singer, what non-keyboard instrument sounds on your arrangers to you like to solo with, or use the most often?

Ian

In most smaller bands keyboarders take care of everything a specific song just nees, be it piano, Organ, Strings, Brass, reed, flute...

So to many bands covering music from others it is very important.



For my personal needs as an arranger player its the bread and butter and one of the most fun things to do... With SA2 and DNC voices one can finally blow that Sax on a keyboard and sound awesome.

Bachus, what non-keyboard type instrument sound do you like to solo with? Do you have a preference, other than the type of sound the song demands...in other words, do you lean on a particular instrument type, like saxophone, trumpet, flute, guitar,violin, harmonica...does one of these become your "go to" sound when soloing?

Does your preferred arranger do a decent job of emulating that instrument, or do you feel it makes you work extra hard at mimicking your choice?

I'm also curious to what non-keyboard sounds will prove most popular amongst SZ'ers.

Ian

Ian,
For me ..... 80% of the night has a Rhodes, bass drums band with me as the leader of a vocal group. When it comes time to solo ... some favorite choices are:
B3 Organs ie: Jimmy Smith, Groove Holmes, etc
juicy Tenor sax
smooth flugelhorn ( Korg has an AWESOME Cornet )
Glenn Miller-esq sax sextion
Chicago-esq brass section
ELP-esq mini moog sounds ( square waves and sine waves ) love the portamento
"some" acoustic piano ( mostly for jazz standards
vibes
steel drums
flute
clarinet

Solo's are rare for me .... I sing too much. 60 songs per night, with very few instrumental breaks or solos, so like I said - for me, it's a Rhodes, bass and drum trip with a vocal group that's featured. I do play about 15-20 songs on my Parker Midifly guitar. Sometimes I trigger the arranger, sometimes not, but I always use the harmonizer with it, and I sometimes layer a pad-like tone with the blend of acoustic and electric pickups that sound SOoooo sweet!

Playing live, I get to solo a LOT, and playing a decent variety of different genres in different bands, the range of sounds they need is pretty much up there.

About the only thing I'm NOT comfortable soloing is guitar, and I'm even worse trying to emulate rhythm guitar..!

Playing these solos on an arranger, in arranger mode, is another kettle of fish. To be honest, if I can't use the bender, that pretty much rules out horns and winds, fiddle, pedal steel, and basically the large percentage of sounds other than keyboard ones (organ, Rhodes, accordion, piano etc.). If I can't bend it and the real thing DOES, I'd rather not play it at all.

In those circumstances, I'll make an SMF from the arranger output, and free up both hands. I miss my chord sequencer!

Oh Diki not you to !! ....Your using SMF's too?..

"Oh the Humanity"!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

I have never said I'm an arranger mode purist. In fact, due to the fact that I DO like to solo on horn sounds a lot (comes from being a trombonist, I guess), I like to use SMF's on a lot of my material.

But I derive quite a lot of these from arranger play in the first place, so there IS a connection, and then I leverage the Mark/Jump buttons to get some flexibility of structure back into the SMF.

The audience doesn't CARE one way or the other, so neither do I...!

Now finally theres a statement I can agree with you on Diki....now put up a good profile pic of yourself & heck we might be on the verge of buddies again ....just like Chas & I Mixing it up on stage is the spice of life baby!!

I pretty much stick with the pianos, ep's, organs as, like Dave, I'm mainly a singer (I will play an instrumental if asked). I do like to have some pad in the left hand, Dark Pad mainly, to round it all out, and my accompaniment tracks are all selectively muted or tweaked.

Like Diki, if a sound requires bends, in general I stay away from it. The only exception might be on a rock guitar sound, and even then my use of the joystick is, let's say, conservatively judicious. There's two of us, and we do use the harmonizer, but again not excessively. Taste in all things. I'm not of the 'everything but the kitchen sink' school.

One of the ways I/we use when gigging to accustom the listener to an emulated sound on the keyboard, is to announce to audience at the introduction to the tune that the "Sax Solo" will be played by the keyboardist...and the keyboardist plays a little sax lick in response.

I uses to actually pick up the PSR-S910 and pretend to hold it like a Sax (it's very light so no problem), and mimic blowing into one end whilst playing a Sax sound on the keys.

It was always a lot of fun "educating" the audience...of course, it may not work in all venues, but it sure adds to the show.

When I played in a 7-piece Rock & Roll Show band in Newfoundland (I used a Rhodes Model 770) and when the Buddy Holly impersonator did True Love Ways, he told the audience, that the tune was one of the first Rock & Roll songs that used "strings"...he would then say, "And, Ladies and Gentleman, our string section!" and the spotlight over me would turn up, and I would play a little string passage on the 770.

I use basically the same idea in my clinics, as well as my concerts/performances.

A small, but , in my experience, very effective way of getting people educated and entertained at the same time....a Yamaha friend of mine, Tom Folenta, used to call it "edutainment".

Ian

Why not? If the saxophone sounds realistic and you can play it on a keyboard to make it sound realistically accurate as far as how a saxophone should be emulated i.e. like a live saxophone player would play it, then go for it! The T4 has probably the best saxophone voices of any arranger but the trick is to play it on the keyboard in such a way as to make it sound as realistically as possible to how a real saxophone player would play the instrument. Which, needless to say, is very difficult to pull off on a keyboard with a 'sampled' voice while trying to emulate all the nuances and other things to make it sound authentic. Although if you're playing at Senior Centers or other less informal venues then "fairly authentic" is probably good enough.

All the best,
Mike

Sax still relies heavily on bends and scoops. Try listening to a master, and try to count how many notes AREN'T bent, scooped moaned, etc.. Not too many!

Even with SA2, I still find most 'one handed' sax emulations just don't QUITE nail it. If I HAVE to do something sax-y, I'll go with a whole sax section, and that doesn't require quite as much bend lever work.

Sadly (for my own good!) I am unconcerned if it impresses the Seniors... it has to impress ME first, and being a horn player, I'm hard to impress

I find for "live" gigging, the amount of bends and scoops I am able to add is realistic enough for my style of music and playing...I don't even remotely pretend to emulate a master at the saxophone...I just want another "color" to work with...harmonica is another I like to use...again, I'm no Toots Thielman...but, realistically, I'm no Toots Thielman.

I don't use SMF on gigs...I prefer style play for it's advantages, at least for my manner of playing.

For recording, the sky's the limit, as I can multi-track and my left hand is free to do much more expression, but for regular "live" work, I am very content with the amount of expression I am able to add, especially with SA/SA2 voices.

I am a perfectionist, but sometimes, perfectionism gets in the way...I can live with a few less bends, and a less than totally perfect sax emulation (especially of a master sax player) if I can have the fun and enjoyment of playing alternate sounds and not be restricted to the more traditional keyboard controlled voices such as piano, Rhodes, organ etc.

That's my take on it.

Ian

When I sit down at my keyboard I never have an audience. I'm usually practicing or recording one of my songs. It does not matter where the instrument/voice comes from... as long as it's authentic sounding in the resultant recording. Many of my songs are "Country" and I'm always looking for more authentic sounding stringed instruments. So far, I have not found a dobro "voice" and I really need one. I don't use MIDI and when I record, I don't use tracks. I simply cut and recut the song until I'm satisfied. Anybody know where I can find a dobro and other instruments/voices suitable for bluegrass and country?

On keyboard-vocal gigs, where I'm the solo act, I usually limit emulation of non kb instruments to an 8 bar solo because unless I actually 'point out' to the audience that I'm playing these parts live they usually merely assume it's a pre-recorded midi or audio backing track playing. I think Ian's humorous method of introducing the idea to the audience both entertaining and educational for them as well.


Utilizing the new Tyros 4 SA voices, I'd say all these sound pretty convincing with a minimal of effort. In fact, I rarely have to utilize the SA art buttons1/2 to get a convincingly realistic sound because expressively playing the keys alone seems to naturally trigger the SA sound realism because depending how hard you press the key or play from note to note (legato vs staccato, etc) seems to bring out the SA instrument's realism. Adding the SA buttons of course further enhances it, but even without calling on that, the expressive instr sound is pretty decent for most live situations.



On the Tyros 4, probably an instrument voice that doesn't incorporate SA2 technology.


SA Guitars.



SA Pedal Steel. Though it sounds impressive compared to other non-SA pedal steels, the emulation isn't authentic to the way an actual real steel is played (steel techinque) and heard. Yamaha needs to work with a real authentic steel player pro to support a more realistic emulation.


Saxophone ( for fills and solos) , probably because it's so similar and expressive like the human voice.

I can do a passable job on emulating several instruments including sax, harmonica, steel, piano and trumpet, but I suppose guitar is my specialty. The sound actually has less to do with it than the technique.
DonM

Yep... Technique is 90%, sound is only about 10% IMO. I was doing emulations on old DX7's and early ROMplers that didn't sound much worse than what I do now (and I still use a pretty ancient K2500 for a lot of session work).

You get the inflections dead on, the sound is just the icing on the cake. And cake without icing is still pretty yummy!

I have heard your guitar emulations, Don...I wish I could do them that well. You are certainly one of the best.

And, yes, the sound has less to do with an accurate simulation than does technique...but, is sure nice to see sounds improving in their response to player input...sounds like SA/SA2 and DNC, for example.

Also, these sounds help the average player sound at least a little more authentic.

Ian

I remember my friend Richard Wells, who is blind btw, using a clarinet sound on a little Yamaha MK100 to sound like a pedal steel. He edited the sound somewhat, but it was the way he played it that let him pull it off.
DonM

Pedal steel is one of those things that have some things that are tough to pull off. You get small tone to 1 1/2 tone regular bends, but then, every now and again, it does a big fifth to an octave swoop or dive (along with a volume pedal fade in or out) so it's tough to set ONE bend depth that works. Set up for the octave, and those tone bends are hard to do accurately. It's one of the things I like my K2500 for, because I can set the wheel for the small bends, and use the big ribbon for the big slides.

Then, there's the issue of one note bending against another, which some keyboards can do (by only bending held notes, not sustained ones) but it needs a lot of forethought and non-natural technique. Then there is the swell pedal technique, which is critical to the sound working. It's definitely a handful to pull off, and I wouldn't DREAM of doing it one handed except on the simplest of parts!

One of my little 'secrets' for a lot of emulation is my little Yamaha KX5 keytar... Just the way the strip falls under your hand (SO much better than the awkward Roland keytars) is very natural feeling, and a strip can do so much more than just bends. Hammer on's and off's, trills, non tongued note jumps, it really is amazing how easy this makes things that are next to impossible to pull off with just a wheel.

If you see one of these in a pawn shop, don't hesitate! Not the best MIDI by modern standards, but a better keytar has never been made!

The last time Gordon Lightfoot played here in Cape Breton, I took two visually impaired friends to hear him.

One of them, Jim, is an exceptionally good musician, both guitar (mainly acoustic) and keyboards (arranger and piano...in fact, he has my old PSR-8000).

After several tunes, Jim turned to me and asked what brand/model of pedal steel was the steel player using.

He was quite surprised when I told him there was no pedal steel player at all...but, there was a guy playing a Yamaha DX7II, who was doing all the pedal steel parts...and did so for the entire show.

First time I ever saw a DX-7, or any other synth, for that matter, being used exclusively as a substitute for pedal steel...or for any other type guitar.

I did hear some terrific lead guitar on a demo video done by Ronnie Foster (George Benson's keyboardist) on a Yamaha PSR-8000, and he did a pretty cool Sax simulation on a Yamaha VL-1.

That Lightfoot concert was quite revealing on how technique can play such a major role in emulating another instrument, as the DX7II wasn't noted for it's realistic guitar sounds (it did have terrific basses).

Ian

Yep... DX7 is still my favorite pedal steel keyboard. Got an E! expanded one to this day. A classic.

Best thing abut FM was, if it got the sound about right, velocity could alter the sound in a very smooth way, not the sudden jumps of sound that cross-switched samples do. And, as a horn player, you can imagine how the breath controller used to make my day!

The late great pianist/vibraphonist, Hagood Hardy (big hit was instrumental "The Homecoming")a guitarist, bassist, drummer and three keyboard players, that did the orchestra parts on his recording in the live show albums...I saw him at our famous Savoy Theatre, in Glace Bay, only a few years before he passed away.

The Homecoming... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu2j7BJZA0&feature=related

The DX-7's were all MkI's and one player did mostly cello and contra-bass, the second did the rest of the string section sounds, and the third did flute, oboe, and other solo instruments.

I didn't see any modules or rack mount synths, and afterwards, backstage, the lady keyboardist who did the string section sounds, and who used to play with the group, "The Parachute Club", told me both DX-7's were totally stock (so it could be easy to get a replacement on the road) and used no effects other than a touch of reverb, and they were using strings, and other sounds, that were programmed by Bo Tomlyn.

If you closed your eyes, you'd swear you were listening to a piano accompanied by a full orchestra...very talented players, and players who's technique was instrumental (sorry)in how these parts were able to sound so realistic.

Many of the sounds in Tyros and PSR are reminiscent of the FM synthesis used in DX instruments.

Many bands used DX-7's for their bass sounds, which were usually doubled with bass guitar...lots of disco tunes had that combo.

Certainly the DX-7 was a ground-breaker...and yes, the breath controller was a hoot (sorry again)...I still use one on my CS-01 mono synth...tres cool!

Ian

That youtube clip isn't DX7's though, is it?!

No, it certainly isn't...back then, 1975, people still used/hired orchestras, at least in the studio.

Don't see much of it nowadays...

Sure looked pretty cool, those three synth players on stage, and it sounded even cooler to these ears; in fact, it was downright inspirational.

I've got an instrument coming tomorrow, The Tyros4, that makes the DX-7 look and sound so primitive...yet, it might not have existed without the latter's overwhelming popularity and acceptance.

Ian

Hi:

As a former sax player I find the SA2 Breathy and Jazz Tenor sax on the Tyros 3 the best of all emulations. It was in fact the key to my purchase of the T3. I found no other product that came close except possibly the PA2X. But it also missed the mark. On the other hand the Alto Sax which is just an old sample and is pretty bad. The Soprano Sax samples are fairly good though.

Also the SA Clarinets are very good as well as the Acoustic Guitars. If I struggle with anything it's the Piano. The T3 Acoustic pianos are just missing warmth and I have yet to tweek them to a point where I am satisfied.

String sounds in general are too bright and aggressive. I can only use Live Strings with some modification. So I wish that area was better.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I too find the SA/SA2 Saxes and Clarinets (and guitars) about the best emulations I've heard, or played, on an arranger.

The Tyros3 Concert Grand left me cold...very thin, especially in the middle...I use Live Grand instead.

To warm it up a little, I went to the MIXER, then tab> to FILTER (PANEL PART) and reduced the BRIGHTNESS level to minus 12 (I'm reading this off my S910 as the T3 was sold to make way for a Tyros4...but the piano edit works the same for both.

The Live Strings work very well layered with Strings with VOLUME at 100 for each, and Octaves for both at 0...I set the HARMONY/ECHO to OCTAVE, VOLUME at 70, ASSIGN to R1, CHORD NOTE ONLY-OFF

Word is that the Tyros4's strings are even more aggressive, so I will attempt to warm them up, and post any successes, especially the sounds common to both T3 and T4.

Ian

Ian:

I didn't find Live Grand or Warm Grand much better. Actually I liked just plain old Grand Piano slightly better.

Yes, Live Concert Grand is thin in the middle and bright. So far I've added reverb and damped it by moving the Modulation Wheel forward slightly.

Thanks, I will try your settings.

Joe